Comrade Abba Moro, the immediate past Minister of Interior under President Goodluck Ebele Jonathan spoke to The Daily Times recently in Abuja. Moro barred his mind on the failed immigration recruitment, APC leadership under Governor Samuel Ortom in Benue State, and some concerned national Issues. Tom Okpe reports.
Since leaving office in 2015 sir, how has it been?
It has been a very difficult period, it has not been easy, settling down after office has circumstances and it has been a very difficult moment,
but again I have always insisted that I leave my life by the day and so, I convince myself that I didn’t change dramatically when I assumed office and so out of office, I think I also didn’t change
and I think I feel fulfilled because of my attitude to life of not allowing the office to get into my head, provided some levels of quotient for me when I left office.
It has not being bed of roses, but I try to cope and hopefully I think things are getting better.
Despite persecution after office, serving under Jonathan?
Well, I wasn’t surprised, because you know while I was in office, one of my lowest point was the tragedy that accompanied the Nigerian Immigration Service;
the recruitment exercise and so, unfortunately for me, mischief makers had manufactured lies and stories and planted it in the minds of Nigerians and so as far as they are concerned, I was guilty.
I am happy that the matter is in the court now and very hopefully, Nigerians will get to know the truth because I didn’t set out for the exercise to fail, I didn’t set out to make money out of that exercise.
I honestly cancelled the previous exercise that was criticised by Nigerians as irregular and as an exercise that was anchored on extortion of money from poor Nigerians,
I cancelled the exercise promised Nigerians that I was going to enthrone a more transparent and cause effective arrangement for that recruitment exercise which I did.
But unfortunately, certain elements within the system plotted for it not to succeed and I didn’t know about it and so the result of that exercise like I keep saying did not make the cause of expectations of the results we expected.
Having said that, I want to leave it as one of the marks I have to live with, for some time.
I look at the whole scenario on what is going on especially the relationship between the government and the people now.
Within my own sense of history of African leadership and politics, I am sure that nobody expected anything less.
The only thing that was in the minds of majority of us was the fact that, Nigerians had expected that we had grown beyond the politics of persecution, the realm of politics of persecution who were on the trajectory of enduring democracy,
but unfortunately I think from what’s happening, that is not exactly what’s going on now because you know, people say yes, if you want to deal with the perceived, revisit problems of Nigeria, they have to deal with the people apparently; assuming to have contributed to those problems.
I think what many people are asking for, is some level of transparency and fairness, because the problems that Nigerians face today didn’t start from yesterday, it didn’t start from the enthronement of government of the PDP, No!
It is a long age set of problems that ordinarily should be tackled headlong and let me tell you, my own perception of problems and solutions is not punishment.
You have identified the problems, stop it from occurring and reoccurring.
We cannot continue in the past because that will not lead to progress in this country.
So, if certain things had gone wrong in the past, yes fine! What are those things that have gone wrong?
How have they gone wrong? Let’s prevent them from reoccurring.
If we live in the past, we will begin to talk about punishment as a panacea for solving our problems which I think it’s not;
even armed robbery that carries death penalty, the death penalty has not prevented people from committing the crime.
Do you regret serving under Jonathan?
Looking back today, if I have the opportunity serving under Jonathan, I will serve again.
There is this book, it has not been unveiled, but parts of its snippet that we saw as journalists, the author of the book is your former colleague who is the present APC Spokesman, Bolaji Abdullahi, he said Jonathan does not believe in corruption; Why was it like that as an insider? Was it that the former President didn’t actually believe there were some people who are ignoble?
One of the greatest wonders by looking back, I have discovered is Bolaji Abdullahi.
Each time I read about his comments about Jonathan and his administration, I kept wondering whether it is still the same Bolaji Abdullahi that was in the cabinet with us, because Bolaji Abdullahi appeared to me at a certain point as a golden boy of that cabinet.
He was in sports, he was in youth development, as a matter of fact, Bolaji Abdullahi was one of the few ministers that combined two ministries as one.
I don’t know about his interactions with Jonathan but I know about my interactions with Jonathan and I know that Jonathan as a president of this country was very passionate about Nigeria and moving Nigeria in the right direction.
I think that also informed why Jonathan assembled a lot of eggheads to help him push Nigeria in the right direction.
Jonathan definitely knew that corruption was the bane of Nigeria’s development and throughout my interactions with Jonathan as a president; I never got any impression that Jonathan could condone corruption.
Of course I think what Nigerians should appreciate is the fact that, as human beings, we have different perception of problems. As human beings, we also have different perspectives on how to solve problems.
Jonathan lived an exemplary life in government and so, if I am Jonathan’s minister and Jonathan’s utterances and actions was transparent; I would not need Jonathan to tell me that I should be transparent.
If Jonathan as the president stayed away from Nigeria’s money, he didn’t embezzle Nigeria’s money, he didn’t engage in any superfluous lifestyle, he didn’t build estates for himself, he didn’t accumulate wealth and properties to himself.
If Jonathan didn’t appropriate money for himself and for his immediate family members, Jonathan didn’t allow any sleaze or sleazes in governance and I am Jonathan’s minister, how do I need Jonathan to carry cane and flog me to tow the line, I should know.
Accepting to serve under Jonathan ordinarily meant that I had agreed to live his card in government which many of us did, not looking at the material benefits that our offices would confer on us, but looking at our occupation of these offices as service to motherland.
Like I said, all of us, individual Ministers under Jonathan have different levels of interaction with Jonathan.
Bolaji Abdullahi certainly had his own level of interactions with Jonathan but if anything as a former Minister, the public servant and a Nigerian – a patriotic one as such,
I can only say that his comments about Jonathan and his administration attributed to corruption is the most uncharitable comments I have ever heard for somebody who had served under him.
How do you compare what we are experiencing now in APC government, a lot of allegations of corruption going on and what we experienced under PDP? How would you compare the two?
Well, I want to think that the time for serious comparison is not here. The APC government is still on the throne, it is still on seat and working.
So, I believe very sincerely that President Buhari and leaders of APC were elected for the tenure of four years.
I will reserve my comments about their performances especially those that directly affect my life and the life of Nigerians now until after they have exhausted their four years in office.
At that point, we would be in a better position to compare because if we are talking about the administration of Buhari and that of Jonathan now, where do we start from?
Is it Jonathan’s two years or five years or six as president? And Buhari’s two years as president or one year as president.
So, ordinarily, I would want to reserve my comments about that. I participated in Jonathan’s administration, I was part of it and I am watching that of Buhari’s administration.
As a student of history, at the appropriate time, I am going to comment on that.
But let me say, if you are talking about corruption, corruption in Nigeria is an endemic problem and albatross to our development process.
Everybody knows about this, and so, those who are claiming to be angels now should know that the days of reckoning will come when everybody will give account of himself.
We will be making propositions, budget propositions and the rest of them and people are watching.
If you have budgeted N1trn for power for instance, if at the end of your tenure electricity supply and distributions still remain as epileptic as it has ever been, then somebody is going to ask you questions where has the N1trn gone to? That’s the point I am making.
But I can tell you that nobody can wish away the fact that, right now, in Nigeria, government officials have perpetrated one level of corruption or the other.
There is no doubt about that, and so, I am not sure that officials of government at this recent time now can completely exonerate themselves from the endemic corruption that Nigeria is witnessing, because Nigerians know, and the allegations are very obvious that corruption is still here with us.
The incumbent governor of your state was in Jonathan’s government, your colleague then, he has been the governor in the state for close to three years now, what has been your experience when you look at the state generally?
Looking at Benue State under Governor Samuel Ortom, I can say, without prejudice to immodesty, that since the creation of Benue State, that administration has been one of the most monumental failures that we have ever had.
Benue State at this moment is tilting towards complete collapse. Benue State under Samuel Ortom quite frankly, and I am not talking politics here, has completely failed the people.
As I am talking to you now, very many Benue public servants have not been paid now for upwards of twelve months. Some sectors have not been paid for upwards of seven months and that is the least that have not been paid.
As I am talking to you now, Benue people have kept the records of all the monies that have accrued to the state under this present administration and they have come to the conclusion that Benue State doesn’t have any business with poverty and non-payment of salaries.
When you look at it from the perspective of infrastructural developments, it is most saddening to note that up till this moment, the state government cannot boast that they have constructed or executed any meaningful project and recently,
I have had cause to challenge the governor of Benue State to invite the President of the Federal Republic of Nigeria like other states to come to his state.
President Buhari has gone to Ebonyi and other states to commission projects. We have asked that, in those days, I was asking the Vice President who was acting president then;
I have asked the governor of my state, Benue to invite the vice president, acting president to come to Benue State to commission one project two years after. And so, it becomes sad when he realized that the salaries of workers are not paid.
As I am talking to you now, it is on record that Benue State government has taken a loan of over N70bn since assuming office.
Two, three tranches of bailout funds have been dished out to Benue State government for over N20B, Paris London refunds could be made to Benue State, were entitled to statutory allocation from the federation account, no matter how small we generate internal revenue.
The Benue State government keeps complaining about ghost workers, unverified levels of Benue workers and I begin to wonder, two years plus into an administration, you are still verifying the number of workers that you have on your payroll.
Two years after, you are still talking about ghost workers, so, who are these ghost workers and which officials are paying them?
When they talk about ghost workers, I say look, let him not suffer the ordinary person because they don’t know anything about that, it is the government officials who should know, and he should ask them.
That’s not supposed to be for public consumption, all we want is that, you have become governor of Benue State and you should solve the problems of Benue State.
Nobody forced you to contest for the governorship position. So, he has become governor and the challenge before him is how to make Benue State better because as I am talking to you now, Benue State is going worst everyday and people are hurt.
Won’t people be saying that you are criticising the governor because you are interested in becoming the governor of the state?
Well, I don’t see anything that is bad about wanting to become governor.
I don’t also see anything that is bad about criticising the governor because I want him to know what he is doing wrong and to correct it.
The point is this; I am not going to contest the governor of Benue State tomorrow. I am leading today.
I am criticising the governor on the issues that are there for everybody to see. We have asked consistently.
How much is the wage bill of Benue State, up till this moment, the governor of Benue State has not been able to tell Benue people and Nigerians how much the salary bill of Benue State is.
I have consistently asked the governor as at the time he took over from Gabriel Suswan what was the salary bill of Benue State?
What is the current bill of salaries of Benue State now, we need to know this, but everything is rather in secrecy, nobody knows and we are saying you have taken loans, you have taken allocations from federation account,
you have taken bailouts, you have taken Paris London club refunds, we have internally generated revenue, don’t we as a people have a right to know how much you owe workers?
Where are the workers? How much have you generated in its entirety as income for Benue State since you assumed office? How much is the salary bill? Why are you not paying salaries?
What have you done with our money? Other states, Kano, publish virtually every month, the income and expenditure profile of the state.
Those of us who are a little above average in Benue State are bearing the brunt.
Every day, people come to ask for money to even feed. Everyday parents of children in schools come to ask for school fees.
Every day, people die of common ailments because they cannot afford hospital bills.
As I am talking to you, a sizable number of Benue people cannot afford two square meals in a day, that’s the truth. So, are we going to keep quiet? When obviously you know that monies accrue to the state government monthly?
Just look at the prospect of somebody working for seven months without salary.
He has a wife, he has, maybe four children, two in the university, one in the secondary school, one in the primary school; how do they feed?
How do they cope? If they fall ill, how do they go to the hospital? I know how much hospital bills I had paid so far? I know how much school fees I had paid so far.
And how many people will have access to Abba Moro? And for how long without any paid job? For how long will I be able to pay school fees?
I can’t pay school fees for everybody. How many people are available to pay school fees? So, the public servants that are not receiving salaries are on the wrong side of this government.
If you look at it, it impacts even on the life of ordinary Benue person because the public servants receive salaries, he goes to the market to buy, so the trader benefits.
He goes to the shop to buy, so the man in the shop benefits, so, if you don’t pay salaries, the trader doesn’t benefit, he can’t sell.
On the issue of security, the anti-grazing bill or law, has he done well there?
Let me tell you, people might say I criticise Ortom because I want to be governor. Quite frankly, I would love to be governor of Benue State, but I am not contesting to take over from Ortom. That’s the truth!
Of course, when immigration issues came up, they said I was raising money to go and contest for the governor. I didn’t do that. Now, I am talking, complaining about Benue people that are suffering.
Let me tell you that the anti-grazing law is good. I was one of those persons that insisted that the bill must be passed by the House of Assembly and that the governor must ascent to it to become law because at a point,
the Fulani herdsmen were moving around our people with careless abandonment and nobody rose in defense of our people and at a certain point the government of Benue State through its proxy,
chairman of Agatu LG signed an agreement with the Fulani herdsmen, paving way for them to graze their cattle in certain parts in Benue State, specifically Agatu LG and we rose against it, I rose against it and I insisted that it was the betrayal of the people.
Now, the governor for the first time listened to our cries and the cries of the people and decided to provide the solution by enacting the anti-open grazing law in Benue state.
If you look at the whole scenario, you would think that, the law was not well totaled because there is no gainsay that the Fulanis and the farmers have lived together for a long time,
the activities appeared not to have impeded the activities of others but in recent times, it has become obvious that the activities of Fulani herdsmen have become a bit of problem to the ordinary farmer in Benue State.
So, the agitations for some levels of control is deemed imperative.
But in trying to provide for the farmers in Benue State, in trying to control the activities of Fulani herdsmen as it affects the lives of ordinary persons, some thoughts should have been given to also the life of Fulani herdsmen, because they have lived in Benue for long; some of them don’t have another home.
One, some enabling environment should have been provided for ranching.
Two, sufficient time should have been given for ranching or ranches to be built, because you don’t wake up from the rock side of the bed and say look, stop open grazing, go and put your cows in ranches.
Where are the ranches? I am not asking government to provide the ranches but like I was saying, if rearing cattle is one business that the Fulani man does, and the atmosphere or condition is no longer favorable towards doing it,
if the Fulani man is given six months, given one year, he cannot build ranches to control the cows, then he would be thinking of alternative business, he could sell off the cows and go into another business.
As it is now, the timeline between the passage of the bill and the assenting to the bill to make it law in Benue State and the time that has been given to Fulanis of agreement either put their cows in ranches or be penalised is not enough and I think that time has made the implementation of the law a little bit difficult.
Lastly on Benue, I know you will be happy for your party to take over the state in 2019, how strong and how acceptable is PDP in Benue State now?
Benue State is a PDP state. Benue State is dominantly a PDP state. Let’s forget about that. The governor himself, almost everybody in APC is virtually PDP.
Majority of the people in APC now are PDP people. So, Benue State has always been a PDP state and then, I think that the people at the helms of PDP in Benue State made some fundamental errors which allowed opposition party, APC to come to power in the state.
But let me also tell you that the PDP in Benue State at the time of election in 2015 was very vulnerable because PDP had been in power in the state for sixteen (16) years.
And so, when the APC came with the mantra of change, there was excitement in the air because the ordinary meaning of change was that things were going to get better.
Quote
If you are talking about corruption, corruption in Nigeria is an endemic problem and albatross to our development process. Everybody knows about this, and so, those who are claiming to be angels now should know that the days of reckoning will come when everybody will give account of himself.
Quote 2
Individual Ministers under Jonathan have different levels of interaction with Jonathan. Bolaji Abdullahi certainly had his own level of interactions with Jonathan but if anything as a former Minister, the public servant and a Nigerian – a patriotic one as such, I can only say that his comments about Jonathan and his administration attributed to corruption is the most uncharitable comments I have ever heard for somebody who had served under him.
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