People without means of livelihood should not be given party tickets for election –Banire
Dr Muiz Banire (SAN) is former Commissioner of Transportation and later Environment in Lagos State.
A former law teacher at the University of Lagos, Banire is today the National Legal Adviser of the ruling All Progressives Congress (APC).
The lawyer is of the belief that the nation’s anti-graft war is still very much on course despite some recent judicial setbacks, but believes strongly that the anti-graft agencies need to do more in their investigation and prosecution.
He also told PATRICK OKOHUE in this interview why he believes that people without identifiable means of livelihood should not be given party tickets to contest election in the country.
*****There have been some court rulings recently that has left many wondering whether the anti-corruption fight is still on track. Like the unfreezing of Chief Mike Ozekhome’s account, unfreezing of Mrs Patience Jonathan’s account, the ruling on Godsday Orubebe, the case of Justice Ademola, wife and lawyer among others, do you think this development gives cause for concern?
It is still very much on track, that is justice, the constitution of Nigeria stipulates that every accused is innocent until proven guilty by a competent court, so if the court says they are not guilty, that is it, but as far as I am concerned, it does not derail anything.
*****But, the concern of some people is that the anti graft agency seem not to be doing diligent job, because if they did they won’t be losing so badly, do you think so?
Yes, I believe truly that they need to improve their capacity; they need to improve in all ramifications. They are taking too much; there are so much diverse distractions in the way they are operating. I believe that if they want to face serious crimes let them face it not these running after Yahoo Yahoo, small small economic crimes, they should allow the police handle that, let them face the major political cases. They are over stretched, but they can’t talk.
*****But, they should know what their capacity is, but for now they seem to be calling for more responsibilities to be thrown at them.
That is my own observation, you don’t have to mess up yourself, if you make all the arrest in the world and do all investigation, but at the end of the day you loss the case in court it is a complete waste of resources, time and energy, so why don’t you concentrate, if it is few that you can handle use those ones as deterrent. It is not all matters that you need to prosecute, it is not all matters that you even need to investigate in the first instance, there are some that you just have to shut the door or close the tap in those areas that you have observed, but does not have strong case and face the major ones which will give the right signal to people.
******Does that justify the call from some quarters that lawyers should be involved in the cases by the anti-graft agencies, from the time of investigation to prosecution?
Certainly, I believe in that 100 percent, I believe in that totally, right from inception.
******The National Assembly has refused to confirm Ibrahim Magu as chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), for the second time, they have asked the President to replace him with another person even in acting capacity, but the President’s refusal has led to bad blood between the legislature and the executive leading to their refusal to screen the Resident Electoral Commissioners (REC) whose list was sent to them by the President, do you think this is the right thing?
Well, that might not be the right thing as far as I am concerned, but I believe that it is really a shame on all of us that this is happening particularly within what is supposed to be one family. But, I am happy that there is an effort towards resolving the logjam now.
*****But, do you think that the National Assembly is right insisting that Magu should no longer act?
Well, it is a matter of perception, you see there are so many ways to look at it, there are so many interpretations. That is their own view of it and you can look at it both ways, for example, I remember when I was a commissioner in the state, I use to say that it is the Assembly after screening me that commissioned me to spend public money, so if you look at from that dimension then they might be right, but if you look at it politically and in terms of the anti-corruption war and the general perception then you will say condemn it, so, it depends on which side you are looking at it from.
******The National Assembly also recently invited the Comptroller General of Customs, Hameed Ali to appear before them in uniform to defend some policies of the agency, but his refusal to wear uniform has generated a lot of controversies, but is it compulsory that he wears uniform in that capacity, having never been an officer in the service?
Well, again it is neither here nor there, you know we lawyers in the interpretation of the statutes and provisions of the law we always differ. There are two sides to it from the little that I have had, because I have not really done any research on it, but from the little that I have seen, it is a fundamental flaw in the first instance that the person is not a customs officer, because by the Customs Act, I understand you are meant to wear the uniform if you are heading the organization, on the hand is the argument of the man himself that says look I am not a customs officer, I am a political appointee of the President, so I am not obliged, the two of them are arguments that are strong in their own respect.
******In all of these do you think the APC leadership of which you are part, is doing enough to bridge the gap among people in government?
They are doing it is just that you have to be careful, you must not turn governance into a party affairs, but as much as possible we are doing what is necessary and I think that efforts have been stepped up recently and it is likely to yield better results shortly.
******So you don’t think APC leadership is losing control of its members in government?
No, more and more people are coming in and we are not losing control, as long as we are a party you must recognize that the Senate is an institution comprising not only APC, but PDP and other parties and beyond that, even if we have everybody being APC it does not automatically mean they must not follow due process, they must follow what is right, while we are calling on the executive too to do what is right, that is what this party stands for, this is a party of the rule of law as far as I am concerned and that is what I tell people, APC is a party of the rule of law. We don’t tamper or tinker with anything that will negate the rule of law, so the mere fact that we have a comfortable majority or even if we have a house full of APC does not mean that we must violate rules and regulations. We are a party of the rule of law and we will resolve everything through the rule of law
*****People are worried that this government is not doing enough to encourage unity in the country, especially in line with actions of some government officials, appointment of some persons into positions of authority, actions of Fulani herdsmen who have gone into killing spree without any consequences from the government, allegations of one sided arrest in the clash involving some Yoruba and Hausa people in Ife, among many other issues, do you share these worries?
I don’t agree with you, this government cares about the unity of the country, but quite naturally in every organizations there are aberrations here and there, overzealousness, we can’t rule all those ones out, what is most important is that you correct them in accordance with the rule of law. For example the Ife clash that you alluded to, is it not an APC state and the governor there is a Yoruba man, is it possible to just be carrying out arrest without interaction with the governor? So, for me, as far as I am concerned, we should not just look at things superficially, we must look in-depth to see what is going on. Is it possible like have been alleged by Afenifere for instance that there appears to be some overzealousness, by just arresting a particular sets of people as opposed to people who are actually culpable, but that does not automatically translate to now say it is creating division in the country and as far as I am concerned some of these things have been there for some time, all that is happening is that in a situation like this you have people fueling them further, especially when some people are not happy with the government they promote such conflicts and I am sure the work of the security agencies is to trap them.
******But when you look at what is happening in Southern Kaduna today, the governor claim that the herdsmen are Fulani from outside the country and he said he had to pay them to stop the attack on his people and that has not helped anything, don’t you think that action is contrary to laid down rules?
Well, I don’t know why he paid them, honestly what you said now is news to me, if he has paid them I don’t think it is the right thing, the proper thing would have been to get the law enforcement people to do their jobs and it doesn’t make any difference where they are from, whether from Britain or America they are liable t prosecution, are they not following those who stole our fuel, some have even been jailed, so it doesn’t make any difference whether you are from outside of from inside. You see by the time you start giving them money to settle them, it is an incentive for more people to come and do their own.
*****This is April, the 2017 budget is yet to be passed by the National Assembly, yet they seem more pre-occupied by other things than the speedy passage of the budget, what will you advice?
Well, I think they possibly are relaxing because of the fact that the Federal Government has changed the terminal date of the last budget to May, so this one will take effect from June, so it appears they still have enough time on their hands to play with, probably that is what they are enjoying.
******The last National Assembly amended aspects of the 1999 Constitution, what areas would you want this Assembly to concentrate their effort if they are to continue with the amendment?
There are lots of areas that they are looking at, you know I am a part of the House of Representatives process on Constitutional amendment and I know a lot has been done. The issue of the division of the office of the Accountant General, that of the office of the Attorney General from that of the Commissioner of Minister of Justice, independent candidature, all those issues have been dealt with now, a lot, local government autonomy, have all been dealt with, I must tell you that this time around, the thing is progressing well and they are hitting the right cord.
******You are known to always be very critical on issues that you feel very strongly about, irrespective of the position of your political camp, making some people to see you as rebellious sometimes. Is it that you enjoy being seen as controversial?
Just yesterday I was addressing members of the civil society organisations and I told them that there is usually this tension between activism and politics, in one breadth you want to be an activist and in another you want to be in politics, there is always that tension, but the reality of the matter is that your decision must be informed by the public good, not necessarily what the platform says, the platform might say something and you personalize it, for example when I say some things I say I am saying this as Muiz Banire, not as Legal Adviser of APC, APC might have its own position, but in terms of propriety this is my own position, this is what I think and actually there is nothing wrong, all of us must be bold enough to say the right thing always, regardless of the platform that we are, particularly if those issues are issues that you agitated exhaustively within your platform and reasoning is not prevailing and you want to be counted among those who will stand apart, then I don’t think there is anything wrong in that, I don’t think there is anything really immoral about saying what you believe in, so if they classify me as a controversial person so be it, but as far as I am concerned what governs my thought is truth, uprightness and principal.
*****But why do you think some politicians are always afraid to speak their mind?
Most of them, comfortable majority are always afraid to speak their minds, but most times they are scavengers, they are just looking for something to eat, they are either looking for political office or looking for contracts or looking for one opportunity or the other. It is not so much of public good that occupies them, that is the problem, we have very limited number of politicians that are actually informed by genuine desire to govern well, that is the problem, so they can’t say the truth, because they believe if I say the truth now I may be oppressed or they will deprive me of one opportunity or the other, as a result they rather prefer to stand aloof sometimes or even run away from the truth.
******But is that fear not genuine?
As far as I am concerned it is not genuine, because in the first instance I don’t see why people should go into politics without clear idea of what they want to do, the underpinning motive must be good governance, going into public office because you believe that your party can offer something that will improve the welfare, like my friend will say, that will give happiness to the people. So if that is the purpose you must not personalise it or turn it to personal gain. That is why my position has always been that every serious politician, especially those vying for position must have alternative contact address. They must have successful jobs before they go, otherwise that is why they become terribly desperate about position to the extent of killing people, maiming people all over the place, because they have nothing else to do, they will die there, as far as they are concerned once they don’t get that office or position it is death, that is why they are desperate. So, we must continuously examine these people before we even give them our mandate, that has always been my campaign, that anybody that aspire or come before us the question must be what is your alternate job, what have you done successfully before we can give you our mandate, so that he doesn’t become a nuisance, that is why even when they get to those positions they cannot even stand upright, they are all very desperate for what they want to benefit rather than the public good.
******But, today we have more professional politicians, even among the army of youths, who have never done anything besides politics, so how do we address that?
I agree with you entirely, it is a shame and highly unfortunate and that is why we are where we are today. My advocacy has always been that we should continue to campaign for more good people to come into the political space, because comfortable majority of them are disasters, liabilities, so we have to encourage more people to come in, that is the only way to clean up that system.
******Last year, when the issue of the money you gave to a judge whom you had worked with in the past, for the burial of his mother three years earlier came to the fore, despite your detailed explanation of your long standing relationship and you never having had any direct dealings with him as a judge, you still tendered your letter of resignation to your party as the National Legal Adviser, though your party rejected your resignation, but what exactly was the reason for that action, what point where you trying to make?
That we must continue to set the right template at every given opportunity, not just talking and talking, at every given opportunity let us demonstrate how things should be done, because I have always believed that once they make allegations against you, leave them let them go and do their investigation and even if you are found guilty then just throw in the towel, we see it happen all over the world every day, that is how things should be, even if you are caught doing the wrong thing it is honourable for you to say I am sorry, let me step aside I have lost the moral right to continue. I don’t know how we are going to do that, it is the same symptom I spoke about, our people here are in public offices for personal gains, otherwise it is a burden, I keep saying it, it is a burden on me, I spend my money apart from using my brain for the party, even for the committee, most of the time we spend our money going all over the whole place, so what is the big deal, if it is not for personal gains why should I want to be there forever.
